8. Absence, Whitney Houston and Permission to Feel with Najia Bagi

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Whitney Houston, feel, listening, love, music, song, hear, absence, nourishing, singing, yoga teacher, vulnerability, life, sing, performance, dance, watch, voice, Whitney, meditation

SPEAKERS
Harriet McAtee, Najia Baji

Harriet McAtee
Welcome to In our experience of podcast exploring the many ways of living well with Nourish Yoga Training. I’m your host, Harriet, yoga teacher and founder of Nourish. today I’m joined by Najia Baji. Najia is an artist, creative learning curator, yoga teacher and deep listening facilitator. She is also a hardcore 90s R&B fangirl. I had a really wonderful, wonderful time talking with Najia. We mostly talked about our shared love for Whitney Houston, whilst also touching on the wonders of macaroni, and how absence shows up in art-making and music. I’m so excited to share this with you. It feels like a gorgeous episode to be ending series one on, and I’d love to hear what you think, either by popping us a message or an email, you can find how to contact us in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me for season one. And here is my conversation with Najia. Hi, Najia Welcome. Hello.

Harriet McAtee
I’m so glad to have you here. Thank you for joining me today. How are you doing?

Najia Baji
I’m so glad to be here. I’m really excited to be talking to you. I’m well. Yes. I’m very well. I feel quite energised today, which is nice. Yeah. Yeah. I am doing Okay.

Harriet McAtee
Great. Well, we’re gonna start with the question that I start every episode with, which is what’s nourishing you this week. And it can be silly. It can be really profound if you want it to be, but I will, I’ll share mine first to help you out. So my nourishing thing this week is that I have been listening to lots of new music, which is not always the case for me. I listen to lots and lots of music, but not all of it is necessarily new. But two bands that I really liked this week have either released new singles or a new album. And I’ve been listening to those. One of them is Alt-J who are from Leeds and I really love they’ve got two new singles out. And then an Australian band that I really like called Parcels have just released a new album. We’ll link to them in the show notes. But I have been enjoying listening to new content and finding that very nourishing. What about you.

Najia Baji
So nice. Yeah, I also go through those phases where you’re finding new music. Actually, A couple of things. One is music, particularly a song by Monika Martin called Go Easy Kid, which is just like this heartbreakingly wise and optimistic and sad song that just I don’t know, it’s telling me something at the moment. And I think the title kind of says it all. It’s yeah, it’s about going easy on yourself and kind of your expectations. That is nourishing me. I really love listening to that song. And I’d say food. I wanted to say food because I’m eating lots of like homemade things this week. And they are like pasta and pizza based delicious messes. And I just love food so much. Yeah, I’m going to go home to have pizza homemade pizza after this.

Harriet McAtee
I’m really jealous. Carbs are my love language.

Najia Baji
I love carbs.

Harriet McAtee
So much. You know, when people like physical touch words of affirmation, I’m like, no, no, no. Like how I show you I love you is by feeding you carbs.

Najia Baji
Yes, yeah.

Harriet McAtee
That’s how I feel loved.

Najia Baji
The bigger the scoop of carbs. And like, I have a friend staying with me at the moment and I made her some pasta with Stilton cheese and it was so good. And so I’m like, that’s exactly I’m like more, just have one more spoonful. Do you want some more? Yeah. Yeah, so I’m feeling I am feeling nourished by really nice food. And that song, I would say

Harriet McAtee
I have a follow-up question, which is if you could only have one carbohydrate for the rest of your life, which one would you pick?

Najia Baji
Oh my god, I love that question.

Harriet McAtee
And why? I’m putting you on the spot.

Najia Baji
Okay, it would be, I know, it’s pasta. So I’m just trying to think of the shape. I want to be specific. So I think it would be macaroni. And that’s because I love the feeling of it in my mouth, as well as being an excellent tasting carb. And I think it goes with so many different sources, cheesy, tomatoey ingredients. Agreed. There’s also something about the sort of shape of macaroni, which like the way it holds sources so delicious as well. Yes. It’s got so much space. There’s so many different small parts. that it can fit lots of sauce in between your pieces. Also, you can eat it with a spoon, which I’m a huge fan of because you can get more in your mouth.

Harriet McAtee
And then also when you bite down on a little tubeless, like sometimes this sauce, like, makes its way out while it’s inside your mouth.

Najia Baji
And you can have it on its own. Like with some butter or oil. I mean, I just I don’t often but you know, you can say like, if that was literally all he had for a while it would still be, it would be okay. Yeah.

Harriet McAtee
Thank you for sharing that with me. That was joyous. Well, let’s, let’s hear a little bit about you. So I’m curious to know, you have a really you do a really interesting array of things. And I’m curious to know a little bit about your background and how you would describe what you do.

Najia Baji
It depends on what kind of mood I’m in sometimes I describe it as too many things. And sometimes I’ll kind of list the things I do. So to list the things I spend time on, and I guess make money from. I am a yoga teacher. And wrapped up in that is a little bit, I suppose about listening. I’ve taught some courses on deep listening recently.

Harriet McAtee
What’s deep listening.

Najia Baji
Deep Listening is a method of meditation and sounding that was created by an artist called Pauline Oliveros. And she started making electronic music in the I’m going to say the 60s, but a proper fan will listen to this and might say I’m wrong. But she was incredibly well known in that circle of making kind of weird electronic music before its time. And then she put a microphone one day on her windowsill in San Francisco she lived in at the time. And she realised when she listened back to what she had recorded that she was so mindful, and in the moment, and she heard things that she never heard. But through the act of listening, she’d, yeah opened up these time and space things as well, where she was having memories. And she was kind of feeling like she could notice other people’s perspectives because she could hear you know, someone on the street talking and she was suddenly drawn into kind of their perspective. And then she, as one of the things she did create these sonic meditations. And they are exercises that anyone can do, regardless of how you don’t have to have any musical training. And they’re really meditative. And they remind, they would remind us of yoga and meditation, but they’re also about sounding. So you, for example, you might inhale and make any note in a group. And then you’d inhale again, and you would make a note that you can hear from someone else. Inhale again, and you would try to hit the note that’s in the middle of everything you can hear. And then you stay on that note until it ends, and that they’re as simple as the instructions are, and you just end up in these really big, magical kind of spaces of um, yeah, connection with people. So I’ve been doing a bit of that recently.

Harriet McAtee
So yoga teacher, deep listening work.

Najia Baji
Deep listening, work, some meditation in with the yoga, I am an artist and a musician. So as I think they kind of wrap-around into one another. And I make work that is really about listening quite a lot of the time, and one way or another and creating spaces for maybe in-between states or unknown states and absence. So I did make work about heartbreak for a few years because I was heartbroken. And then that developed into more kind of work that is centred or starts with movement. And then and then I started to realise or what I kind of was requesting what’s the thread? What’s the that’s the thing about heartbreak and then movement and breath and I think it is that I’m interested in the absence and yeah, I don’t know I I really love that. So I, Yeah, That’s so interesting. I think I was in a previous episode I have a conversation with Simran about this very thing like when you do many different things or you express yourself in many different ways sort of stepping back and allowing the pattern to emerge to see what it is that connects all of those things can be really, really fascinating. And, you know, that view it’s like absence and listening and these like liminal spaces is gorgeous. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it’s you saying that makes me think that it’s also okay not to, to know the pattern that for me, and I’m sure you and many others, it’s hard to give that space to ourselves and we kind of like what is the what is the thread? What is the connection between these things? And obviously, it’s you.

Harriet McAtee
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think as well sometimes, you know, coming back to the way that you first answered that question are like all some days I say it’s too many things that can also that’s like the, that’s the flip side to the feeling connected to the thread. The flip side is like, sometimes I’m like, I knew too much do I need to like refine this?

Najia Baji
Yes, absolutely. And kind of, I guess, in my doubtful phases, I, I just feel I can feel quite tired. And think if I focus on one thing, would I be better at it. But, but I never let any anything go. So I love I love it all. I’m also a creative learning curator at a contemporary art gallery in London called The Mosaic Rooms. We promote contemporary culture from the Arab world and beyond or the SWANA region with is South-West Asia and North Africa. That work gives me a really good opportunity to meet lots of different artists who are working in lots of different ways. And also to become aware of Contemporary Arab culture, which is really important to me for probably reasons we’ll go into in the next question.

Harriet McAtee
Yeah. Well, that was a question. Well, I just, I think what I, what I’m admiring of, and what I’m enjoying about it is that there’s a real richness to what you do, you know, a real depth and, like, one of the things I’m really interested in exploring is just generally in practice and teaching in life is how the personal and then the universal intersect. And one of my teachers is fond of saying, the closer you get to something, the more intimate you become with something, the less personal it gets, and the more universal it becomes. So it’s like sometimes, you know, the closer we get to ourselves, the less like, the less personal we become, not in a bad sense, but not in a depersonalising way. But the closer we get to something, the more intimate we become with it, the more we’re able to appreciate, like interconnectedness and the richness and the sort of the closeness of existence.

Najia Baji
Gosh, I really like that. I kind of I’m not sure if it’s what you’re saying, but I’m interpreting it a little bit as that, in that as you get more comfortable with something, you stop making it so much about you. Maybe that’s not exactly what you’re saying. But that’s kind of one taking as well. I think you start to see the bigger picture.

Harriet McAtee
You have a broader perspective on things.

Najia Baji
Yeah, that’s lovely. Isn’t that lovely?

Harriet McAtee
It’s a nice thing. It’s a nice way to think about things.

Najia Baji
The deeper fall in love with someone the more you understand about love, not necessarily just that person.

Harriet McAtee
Yeah, exactly. Speaking, speaking of love. It’s not the only reason I brought you here. Because I wanted to talk to you about lots of things. But we share a love

Najia Baji
We do.

Harriet McAtee
Najia and I share and I share a deep, deep love for the very wonderful Whitney Houston.

Najia Baji
Yeah, we do. It’s lovely to talk to you about Whitney Houston because I know lots of people like her music but I feel like when we talk about her we and we need to talk more about her but every time we do I see it in your eyes that you deeply appreciate her like I do. Yeah, yeah, what’s your favourite song? I know you’re asking me questions. But what a cruel question to ask.

Harriet McAtee
So cruel. But easy. I have nothing. It literally destroys me. Obliterates me, like a crumpled mess on the floor, like on the inside, after listening to that song. But interestingly, well interesting to me.

Najia Baji
And me.

Harriet McAtee
I will always love you is The first song I ever remember hearing.

Najia Baji
Wow.

Harriet McAtee
Yeah.

Najia Baji
Wow.

Harriet McAtee
Yeah.

Najia Baji
That must have.

Harriet McAtee
So I would have been like three. Because bodyguard was 1992 1993 wasn’t it?

Najia Baji
Yeah, yes., so were just tiny. And you remember hearing the song?

Harriet McAtee
Yeah, and watching the video in Australia on Saturday mornings, there’s this. There’s his video music programme called rage where they play the music videos. And it’s not anything like, there’s no, well, when I was a kid, there was no host it was just like, the songs would come on one after the other. And I have like crystal clear memories of the house I was living in with my parents and watching this television and there being Whitney Houston there with the bodyguard video clip and I must have been three. That and Meatloaf, I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that.

Najia Baji
They’re two very, very different.

Harriet McAtee
But I will always love you is the first song I remember listening to. But I think as I’ve got older, I have nothing, has become like, you know, the front runner. What about you?

Najia Baji
Well, the first one I heard was, saving all my love for you. And that’s the first Whitney Houston song I heard. And I wasn’t three. So I wasn’t quite so young. But I think I was only about seven, or eight. And I felt like I understood what she was talking about. And I sang it. So I sing, I’m a singer. And at that age, I was probably between seven and ten just beginning to sing to my mom and she had to turn around and not look at me because I was too shy. And I was singing this song maybe a little bit older, maybe eight or nine. I was singing it and I wouldn’t sing the words making love, I’d be like, will be the whole night through my mom was like this is kind of she like took me to one side and she’s like, you know, this song is about like having an affair and, and I didn’t know that. But I did know it sounded really sad and longing and I loved it, so that’s the first one I heard. And my favourite one, it does change. But the upbeat is I want to dance with somebody. Yeah. I love that song.

Harriet McAtee
My upbeat is how will I know?

Najia Baji
Amazing choice.

Harriet McAtee
But I want to dance with somebody. Also exceptional.

Najia Baji
exceptional, exceptional. And I have nothing. If I had favourites faster and slower. Yeah, it would be Yeah, I want to dance with somebody and I have nothing and same it floors me the vulnerability. And just the way she holds her voice and herself.

Harriet McAtee
It’s incredible. This is the thing that is so I think underappreciated about Whitney Houston is that there is so much vulnerability in her music. And for me, like on a really personal level. I’m somebody that struggles with vulnerability. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it hate or hate being vulnerable, like in a relationship, whether it’s friends or partners or family like I really struggled to, like, allow that in myself. But one of the ways I access it is through like music from Whitney and other artists but Whitney Houston in particular. It like it unlocks this part of me and sort of it makes it okay for me to sort of be a little bit softer and squishy. And yeah.

Najia Baji
that’s so lovely. I think that’s so lovely. I wouldn’t say I struggle with vulnerability in the same way. But I find it but similarly to you, I find it maybe difficult to find as much time for vulnerability as I’d like to. So listening to, I mean singing for me is a huge, I mean all of my songs are sad and to listen to my music you’d be like oh my god, is she, okay she’s obviously never okay. And I am often really really okay but it’s just that but that that gives me a key but yeah, Whitney, I mean, yeah, the I have nothing is like it’s kind of the beyond it’s kind of it’s the edge of feeling like so much of your belief in love, in so much of your hope is resting in the arms of someone else or in or in the feeling that you have between you. And then to say, you know, if if you weren’t here, I would have nothing. I mean nothing. And then the way she, Yeah, I think just today actually because I was we were preparing, preparing, and I watched her sing he’s all the man that I need.

Harriet McAtee
Oh, this is the welcome home heroes one. We’ll link will link this one in the show notes. Because it’s, it’s so wonderful.

Najia Baji
It’s a sermon. It’s on many of the performances she did were sermons to, like, where everybody is.

Harriet McAtee
There’s a real spiritual aspect of them isn’t

Najia Baji
Absolutely where everyone is not only hanging on her, almost as a deity, or maybe a like channel and she believed that like she was so very religious. But and then, then there’s the aspect in that performance, where you’ve got all of these military personnel. I have a strong negative feeling towards the military, but to see them all there. And just like, I mean, they are transfixed and mesmerised, aren’t they?

Harriet McAtee
And the way in that clip, the way that she walks across the stage and reaches out to sort of touch people and, you know, hold their hand, and you knows she’s making eye contact, and she, you know, she gave so much in her performances, didn’t she?

Najia Baji
Yeah, she did. You’re right. She’s, yeah, there are, there was imagery that really inspired me. And I started to think about an art project where that somehow the outstretched hand was so kind of, I’m gonna say biblical, but maybe I mean, sort of like has Christian undertones.

Harriet McAtee
Yeah, well, I think there’s like, there’s something about reaching out to somebody regardless of like religion, like it’s a gesture of welcomeness and like offering and.

Najia Baji
Yeah, and giving and kind of maybe recognising that you, you feel there’s a power. I felt like she felt there was a power inside her that she was offering. The way she was reaching wasn’t kind of like, hello, it was kind of like, yeah, this, like, I feel powerful. I’m full of love for you, I really believe and I’m so like, vibrating with, you know, all of the music that she was making on that stage. And she was almost like, offering some of that power out and allowing it was like she was allowing people to.

Harriet McAtee
I think there’s a lot that she. What am I trying to say? She gave permission for people to step into that experience? Yes. She’s sort of she was bringing people in, she’s saying, Here’s, you know, here’s this thing. Yeah, it’s okay to sort of, you know, feel this way or to connect to this experience. Or, you know, come in, come in, come in.

Najia Baji
Yes, you’re right, she did. And I’ve not seen anyone. I’ve not seen a performance live or recorded of anyone else that does that. Like she does.

Harriet McAtee
I think she’s just easily one of the best vocalists and performers of the past 100 years. Like a voice like that hasn’t existed since.

Najia Baji
I love to watch her be so powerful. I love to watch her singing and hardly moving her body or mouth and this like, massive sound comes out and she’s enjoying it. I love to see performances where she’s kind of like, she feels really.

Harriet McAtee
She’s really sensual, isn’t she, she’s very, very, when you watch her perform live. She’s very, very embodied, like, right there. So present. So like, in, in herself, particularly in the like, you know, in the late 80s, early 90s. You know, things sort of shifted as I think, as a life took hold. But so incredibly, there and here and now with her whoever she was in front of and whatever music was happening.

Najia Baji
You’re right. Yeah. Yes. She didn’t seem in those in those early years. And I must admit that that’s most of the performances that I’ll kind of watch and be inspired by. Yeah, she was very present. And yeah, in her body and her body was so like, she would just do a little shrug of the shoulders or a little kind of curl of the lip. You know, she’s got like, or she has a thing where she frowns but it’s different to when I frown and there’s like one line that comes across in between her as though her nose comes up and her forehead comes down.

Harriet McAtee
I see what you mean.

Najia Baji
I think. And these little things, and they’ll just happen a tiny little thing when she’s singing, and it will just, like, tell you another like novels worth of feeling behind the one word that she just signed. Oh, God, I love her. We love her.

Harriet McAtee
We love her. She’s just so brilliant. I think for me as well, like, coupled with the tragedy of like her life. It just devastates me. I saw her live it must have been 2010 It was her last tour. And that it was such a surreal experience because her last album that came out was sort of like it did really well, it was number one. And there was this energy of like reclamation around it. And seeing her live was such an important experience for me. And it was so beautiful, but so sad at the same time because her voice had really changed quite a lot. And you know, it’s still this voice that you know, and love and the performer that you know and love. But there was it was almost like there was this grieving happening at the same time. And then she died. You know, 18 months later.

Najia Baji
Did she sing I have nothing?

Harriet McAtee
I can’t remember. I don’t think so. I could look up the tracklist for it. She did sing I will always love you. But like without the high note.

Najia Baji
Yeah, because her voice was her voice had been damaged. Yeah. I think there was grieving and kind of like, almost like a, it seemed like she’d accepted or moved into a phase where she wasn’t fighting for, like her health or. I saw an interview she did with everything the interview that she did with Oprah Winfrey. No, it’s lovely. But it’s sad. And there’s a part in it, where, it’s not all sad. But there’s a part in it, where they’re talking about her marriage to Bobby Brown. And I think they might have separated or something had happened where it was publicly known that there was some issues and because Oprah knew about it, and she was like.

Harriet McAtee
well, he battered her, didn’t he?

Najia Baji
Yeah. And she was, I remember really seeing it for the first time. So I’ve watched the interview since and Oprah was saying, so you know, what, what happens? Or like, what is what’s, what’s going on? And she was saying, Well, you know, Whitney Houston was like, Well, you know, when somebody is kind of intimidated by how big you are, like, sometimes they want to make you feel smaller. And I just thought, like, does anyone else famous say something? So? That’s so honest. And so like, everyone’s been in a relationship like that. And Oprah Winfrey looked at her was like, kind of, she was incredibly incredulous. And she looked at her and she was shocked. And she was like, but you’re Whitney Houston, you make yourself small for, to keep a man happy. And Whitney was like, kind of shrugged. And she was like, You know I want my marriage to go well, and Oprah was like, and I was like, Oh, my God.

Harriet McAtee
Well, maybe this is the thing about her is it there’s a real humaneness to Whitney Houston, which makes her so accessible is the word I want to use, relatable isn’t quite the word. But like the, you know, and that humaneness is like when she’s in performance and when she’s singing, but also when she is, you know, in those interview situations as well, and she was so you know, there was a real openness about the issues that were going on in her life. And.

Najia Baji
Yeah, I must admit, I’m not hugely kind of knowledgeable about like, the last few years of her life. I know, sort of facts like there was a documentary, I read the book and it mentioned the documentary. Did you see anything because I haven’t seen anything like that?

Harriet McAtee
I sort of refused to watch it because it feels like trauma porn to me.

Najia Baji
I’m glad you said that because that’s how I feel about

Harriet McAtee
And like, I want to, I want to celebrate her and not and not feed into that in feed into that narrative. What what I should mention, though, and I know that you’ve listened to it is that there is a wonderful episode of the podcast still processing, about Whitney Houston. And we will link to that in the show notes because it goes into so much more detail than what we’re talking about here. And it really does justice to the sort of broader social issues around Whitney Houston, because there was this whole, you know, particularly her first two albums, there was this whole dynamic around her being like, the acceptable black person in the recording industry and how that led to her sort of being ostracised in a way from the black music community. And I think I think that really, that’s so that’s such an interesting and really, deeply upsetting aspect as well. Because the other thing I think I find really interesting about Whitney Housten is her aloneness. Like, she strikes me as somebody who was very alone in all sorts of ways for all sorts of reasons. And that really comes through in her music as well, like she’s singing to somebody that’s not there. Oh, my gosh, absence. Yes.

Najia Baji
Just like, Yes, you got it. That’s right. That’s one of the things that I adore, about, like, so her music videos and stuff. I just feel like so I want to dance with somebody, which I think they mentioned in still processing as well. And they’re kind of like, as I’m sure that both of us love, like the wigs, the dresses. Like, it’s perfection in every way. And it’s also a kind of weird, a short film in a way. She’s like dancing up and down a corridor and opening doors. And there’s no one there. She’s opening doors and there’s a couple dancing on their own or it’s just a bit abstract and weird and, yeah, that basically absence she’s singing

Harriet McAtee
But like, saving all my love for you. I will always love you. I have nothing. There’s no there’s nobody there.

Najia Baji
Yep,

Harriet McAtee
She’s alone.

Najia Baji
And like the my love is your love even which is much more recent. And she’s alone on that as well. She’s like, she gets onto a stage and

Harriet McAtee
and that’s all right, but it’s not okay.

Najia Baji
Yeah, yeah, yeah. love that song. And it’s honest. Again, it’s like, you know, I looked in your phone, and there was another number there. So I’m off, pack your bags?

Harriet McAtee
Get up and leave.

Najia Baji
Yeah. Don’t you dare come running back to me?

Harriet McAtee
So I think yeah, the absence thing is really interesting to me. I’m gonna, like, sit and think about that for a while. Because I think I’m somebody as well that’s experienced a lot of aloneness in my life. And like the, like the resonance with Whitney Houston. I mean, I always knew it was deep, but it just goes deeper and deeper.

Najia Baji
I love this. I love that we’re using Whitney Houston as like a therapy tool right now. I mean, why wouldn’t she be?

Harriet McAtee
Well, this is the thing is that, you know, we if we think if we sort of circle back to yoga, we think about so within some yoga traditions, there’s this, the you have the Bhakti tradition, which is the you know, Bhakti is the energy of sort of devotion. And it’s that feeling of like, heart, expansive, like, you know, you feel your heart grow 10 sizes in your chest, and connection, and joy and community and all of these things. And it’s much more than that. But you know, Bhakti is a feeling that you can have in your body. And singing and chanting and mantra or ways of cultivating Bhakti. But for me, like you can access it through Whitney Houston. And this sort of like heart expansiveness. I think, particularly when we live in a world which, you know, often we need to feel closed and guarded. And like, you know, in the context of the past 18 months, you know, connection and contact has been really reduced and really limited. Having a vehicle to sort of instantly transport you into that sense of like, oh, there’s somebody here with me. And it’s Whitney Houston. I think is a really important thing. Yeah.

Najia Baji
I agree. That’s a lovely way to Yeah, I hadn’t really thought of the back to yoga, and Whitney Houston connection, but you’re right, you, yeah, you I feel like in her voice in the, in the delivery in the talent in the pure talent of the technical, incredibleness of her voice. And the way that we that you were saying, you know, we were saying she brings her whole self into it, and she’s also kind of giving she knows that she’s giving and she knows she’s welcoming you into that space,

Harriet McAtee
Very self-aware.

Najia Baji
Very self-aware. And so, what else could we do, but feel that we can step into that and there are so many artists that don’t, you know, that’s not their thing. They’re not offering you a space to step into and kind of feel connected to these bigger these big huge things that you feel connected to, love, hope, you know, fear like loss, absence. And you can. Yeah, you can access some space to work through those things whilst listening to her for sure. Yeah,

Harriet McAtee
I love that. Wow. I we could talk about we could keep going. But we are running out of time. So where can our listeners find you if they want to see what you’re up to?

Najia Baji
You can find me on Instagram, I have two accounts. One is @withnajia, and that will show you where to come to my yoga classes, which by the way have lots of Whitney Houston tracks, always. And yeah. And like deep listening and meditation. And then I have another account which is @NajiaBaji, which will show my artwork more and my work with the Mosaic Rooms, my creative learning, curation. So I would say they’re probably the best ways to find me. I also have a website, which is with Najia and another one for art, which is Najia Baji. So you know,

Harriet McAtee
We will pop up links to those in the show notes. Well, thank you so much, Najia. This has just been a pleasure.

Najia Baji
Thank you for having me. I’m so glad we got a chance to talk about Whitney Houston for so long. Me too.

Harriet McAtee
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